Curse

chesterocks7 · May 31, 2008, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by poasiods

Redirecting you where you wandered off, you're not exchanging 20 life for 4 attribute points - you're losing 75 to 85 life for using a superior attribute rune instead of minor attribute rune or a Rune of Vitae. Having 100 more health (20 percent extra) certainly does make a difference in most situations.

Also, you can't keep up Throw Dirt and Whirling Defenses up indefinitely. You can spam them pretty frequently to certainly efficiency if, for some reason, the mob decides not to Wild Blow it out of you or purge blind as you apply it. Exchanging two extra seconds of Throw Dirt and Whirling Defenses in exchange for 75 life is not worth it - it is much more efficient to keep the extra health.

Anyhow, returning to the original issue, no matter how smart you think you may be playing, losing 75 health in exchange for two extra attributes in Expertise is not a smart trade for any build.

you obviously didnt read my post because i clearly said you would have 95 extra health. but anyways, yeah 100 more health will keep you alive longer, but 4 extra attribute levels can affect your entire skill bar. about the throw dirt and whirling defense, there are plenty of other skills you could take that will are useful in any number of situations. and you must not be playing your builds with much intelligence if you cant survive long with less than 600 health. ive never had any problems surviving and ive always used sup runes. but you are just as entitled to your opinion as i am.

zling · May 31, 2008, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Lightbringer's Gaze+high Lightbringer rank is the way to go...
the build itself is secondary, as there are plenty of options...

Grammar · May 31, 2008, 06:02 AM // 06:02

If you don't run Prepared Shot: [sloth hunters shot]

If you do run Prepared Shot: [penetrating attack]+[sundering attack]

poasiods · May 31, 2008, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesterocks7

you obviously didnt read my post because i clearly said you would have 95 extra health. but anyways, yeah 100 more health will keep you alive longer, but 4 extra attribute levels can affect your entire skill bar. about the throw dirt and whirling defense, there are plenty of other skills you could take that will are useful in any number of situations. and you must not be playing your builds with much intelligence if you cant survive long with less than 600 health. ive never had any problems surviving and ive always used sup runes. but you are just as entitled to your opinion as i am.

Of course, I obviously didn't read your post but somehow managed to add retorts to several points you made in it.

I was just pointing out whatever amount of logic you had failed to make much argument at all. First, you try to make it sound as if the health loss from superior runes isn't fatal at all by saying that it is an exchange of 4 attribute points for 20 health, as if extra Runes of Vitae will only be present if a superior attribute rune is added. Then, you admit it takes off 95 health only to duff it by saying "but you are a RANGER not a WARRIOR and if you play smart instead of sitting in one spot and firing away while soaking up dmg, you shouldnt need the extra health."

Then, it looked like you were addressing what you incorrectly said about Whirling Defense and Throw Dirt, but I must've been leading myself on, as you hopped straight into that wagon about using others number of skills without mentioning anything else about those two. I'd like to hear about these other skills which will so greatly benefit me by being at 16 attribute points instead of 14.

There is nothing you can do with 16 expertise when you receive a large spike of armor-ignoring damage, such as from Energy Burn or Energy Surge, which are are impossible to block, kite, or even reduce the damage from. Whatever you do to play smart, there's only so much you can do against these sort of inconveniences. These attributes may "affect my entire skill bar" in certain situations, but like I mentioned already, the benefits are bare minimum and don't reap anywhere near sufficient products to compensate for 75 health loss.

Also, I'm not sure where you pulled the bit about me going through much trouble to survive with under 600 health. I used to satisfy myself with around 500 health until I figured out extra health is more beneficial.

milkflopance · May 31, 2008, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

@ milkflopance

Read post above mine that I quaoted please and you will see that I was explaining to the poster how to maximize the bow he displayed.

I know you were, I was too, although i probably didn't make it very clear.

As for hornbow damage, I found this:

http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showp...62&postcount=1

Quote:

Conclusion
In virtually all tests the horn bow is outperformed by the other bows; only in a spike or in the situation of using Quick Shot and Needling Shot together does the horn bow do more damage

That's quite old though, and doesn't mention the buffed [sundering attack] and [penetrating attack], which might work well with one because of the fixed activation time.

Tyla · May 31, 2008, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkflopance

That's quite old though, and doesn't mention the buffed [sundering attack] and [penetrating attack], which might work well with one because of the fixed activation time.

That's why I'm glad I didn't get rid of my Rangerspike bow.

chesterocks7 · May 31, 2008, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by poasiods

Of course, I obviously didn't read your post but somehow managed to add retorts to several points you made in it.

I was just pointing out whatever amount of logic you had failed to make much argument at all. First, you try to make it sound as if the health loss from superior runes isn't fatal at all by saying that it is an exchange of 4 attribute points for 20 health, as if extra Runes of Vitae will only be present if a superior attribute rune is added. Then, you admit it takes off 95 health only to duff it by saying "but you are a RANGER not a WARRIOR and if you play smart instead of sitting in one spot and firing away while soaking up dmg, you shouldnt need the extra health."

Then, it looked like you were addressing what you incorrectly said about Whirling Defense and Throw Dirt, but I must've been leading myself on, as you hopped straight into that wagon about using others number of skills without mentioning anything else about those two. I'd like to hear about these other skills which will so greatly benefit me by being at 16 attribute points instead of 14.

There is nothing you can do with 16 expertise when you receive a large spike of armor-ignoring damage, such as from Energy Burn or Energy Surge, which are are impossible to block, kite, or even reduce the damage from. Whatever you do to play smart, there's only so much you can do against these sort of inconveniences. These attributes may "affect my entire skill bar" in certain situations, but like I mentioned already, the benefits are bare minimum and don't reap anywhere near sufficient products to compensate for 75 health loss.

Also, I'm not sure where you pulled the bit about me going through much trouble to survive with under 600 health. I used to satisfy myself with around 500 health until I figured out extra health is more beneficial.

thank you for repeating two paragraphs of what i already said, that really helped your argument. im not going to touch the first two paragraphs you wrote, because all you did was repeat what i said.

look at the wilderness survival skills and believe it or not, there are quite a number of skills that will benefit you more by being at 16 instead of 14. why do you think they made it possible to go up to 16 if there would be no point to it? and even if you wont believe that, wrap your head around this. with a sup attribute rune, you can actually lower that 16 down to a 14! leaving you able to raise an entire other attribue up 4 or 5 levels! so you can have your troll give you +7 health regen while still having high expertise and marksmanship. so you can either keep 75 extra health, or have the ability to raise an entire attribute up enough so that you can heal yourself and use any other skills in that attribute effectively.

so when you get hit with those spells that you cant block, you have troll or healing springs to counter the health lost, and you still can use other wilderness survival skills effectively. the extra 4 levels dont have to be in just one attribute, with a sup attribute rune, you can raise 3 different attributes relatively high without losing their efficiency.

im not sure why exactly you cling on to that extra 75 health so much, but perhaps you should drop being a ranger and take up being a warrior.

milkflopance · May 31, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesterocks7

wall o' text

im not sure why exactly you cling on to that extra 75 health so much, but perhaps you should drop being a ranger and take up being a warrior.

Because 75 health is worth more to most people than 2 extra points of energy saved on a 15 energy skill, +2 bonus damage, or 2 seconds longer poison duration.

Quote:

why do you think they made it possible to go up to 16 if there would be no point to it?

They also made skills such as [mending], [defy pain] and [endure pain]. That doesn't mean you should use them.

chesterocks7 · May 31, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkflopance

Because 75 health is worth more to most people than 2 extra points of energy saved on a 15 energy skill, +2 bonus damage, or 2 seconds longer poison duration.

2 extra points saved on top of the 6 or 7 already saved, +2 bonus dmg on top of the +16, 2 seconds longer poison on top of the 7 seconds already there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkflopance

They also made skills such as [mending], [defy pain] and [endure pain]. That doesn't mean you should use them.

there are very few skills in this game that are absolutely useless. mending is a common skill in quite a number of builds for various professions. endure pain is a great skill when you are first starting out and dont have better skills yet. ill admit, ive never seen defy pain used. but skills are also different from one another, runes of greater attribute points are just a step up from runes of less attribute points. it is completely a matter of preference whether you prefer that 75 extra health, or the boost to all your different skills.

milkflopance · May 31, 2008, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesterocks7

2 extra points saved on top of the 6 or 7 already saved, +2 bonus dmg on top of the +16, 2 seconds longer poison on top of the 7 seconds already there.

2 seconds longer poison isn't going to help, you'll be reapplying it every hit anyway (unless you're planning to spread it, in which case you'll have about a 9-10 second duration and a poisonous weapon).

The 2 extra points of energy is only on 15 energy skills (assuming you're boosting it up to 16), which will probably be [apply poison], [pin down] and [broad head arrow], which are all non-spammable skills.

As for the bonus damage, the extra hits you can get in before dieing because of the extra health will probably surpass the +2 per attack.

More health also gives a monk more time to react before you die, and helps prevent spikes from being so effective.

Quote:

there are very few skills in this game that are absolutely useless.

No, there are. That's not the point anyway. The point is that they are there even though they're bad. Same goes for runes.

Quote:

mending is a common skill in quite a number of builds for various professions. endure pain is a great skill when you are first starting out and dont have better skills yet.

Mending is a common skill in quite a number of bad builds. Endure pain is a great skill for wasting a slot, and helping the other team spike you when it ends.

chesterocks7 · May 31, 2008, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkflopance

As for the bonus damage, the extra hits you can get in before dieing because of the extra health will probably surpass the +2 per attack.

if you play smart then you shouldnt go into every fight wondering how you can do the most dmg before you die. rangers have lots of survival skills, so you shouldnt be dying so often. those extra points can be put into attributes with survival skills so that you arent just trying to cram in the most dmg in between deaths. besides, dp kinda destroys your whole theory there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkflopance

More health also gives a monk more time to react before you die, and helps prevent spikes from being so effective.

do you solely rely on your monks to keep you alive? troll unguent is probably the best, non-monk, healing skill in the game. with those extra attribute levels you can add them to wilderness survival to take a lot of pressure off your monks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkflopance

Mending is a common skill in quite a number of bad builds.

mending works great in 55 builds, a variety of running builds, and different bonding builds. do you think because a few stupid wammos think theyre gods because of it that its a horrible skill?

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkflopance

Endure pain is a great skill for wasting a slot, and helping the other team spike you when it ends.

like i said before, endure pain is great when you are just starting out to give you that last second chance to get healed before dying. do you think that every skill thats worth something has to be useful in elite area farming?

Tyla · May 31, 2008, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesterocks7

if you play smart then you shouldnt go into every fight wondering how you can do the most dmg before you die. rangers have lots of survival skills, so you shouldnt be dying so often. those extra points can be put into attributes with survival skills so that you arent just trying to cram in the most dmg in between deaths. besides, dp kinda destroys your whole theory there.

Wasting skills on survivability is bad, unless you're built for splitting aswell, and that's more of a PvP thing.

Utility slots, however are good.

Quote:

do you solely rely on your monks to keep you alive? troll unguent is probably the best, non-monk, healing skill in the game. with those extra attribute levels you can add them to wilderness survival to take a lot of pressure off your monks.

No, it isn't. I don't solely rely on my Monks, but I bring utility skills that benefit not only me but the entire party.

Regeneration is only good versus pressure. And the best non-monk healing skill is in the ritualist skill lines.

Quote:

mending works great in 55 builds, a variety of running builds, and different bonding builds. do you think because a few stupid wammos think theyre gods because of it that its a horrible skill?

It is a horrible skill. Removes one pip of energy regeneration, ten energy to use it, only benefits one person.

It's only good in 55hp builds, and that's it. If you want a good party-wide pressure removal skill, use Recouperation.

Quote:

like i said before, endure pain is great when you are just starting out to give you that last second chance to get healed before dying. do you think that every skill thats worth something has to be useful in elite area farming?

It's not good though. If I wanted a health buff like that, I'd be better off with something like [[Vital Blessing] which can be maintained.

chesterocks7 · May 31, 2008, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Wasting skills on survivability is bad, unless you're built for splitting aswell, and that's more of a PvP thing.

Utility slots, however are good.

it depends on your play style. i like to bring a variety of skills that will work for different situations, and that can keep me alive if things go bad. unless of course im doing a specific type of run or filling a very narrow role in the group. but it all depends on how you like to play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

No, it isn't. I don't solely rely on my Monks, but I bring utility skills that benefit not only me but the entire party.

there are not many ranger skills that benefit the whole group, unless you are talking about your secondary profession's skills. if that is the case, the extra attribute points can boost the effectiveness of those skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Regeneration is only good versus pressure. And the best non-monk healing skill is in the ritualist skill lines.

regeneration is not only good against pressure. no, it wont save you from a spike on its own, but it can help you enough in between taking dmg to survive long enough for your monks to help you. and imo thats better because those extra attribute points will help other skills of the same line. and i forgot about the rit class, they can be almost as good as monks. i was more thinking the martial classes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

It is a horrible skill. Removes one pip of energy regeneration, ten energy to use it, only benefits one person.

It's only good in 55hp builds, and that's it. If you want a good party-wide pressure removal skill, use Recouperation.

it is not a good skill for general usage, but it is very effective for 55 builds, running builds, and bonders. using mending on a ranger running build is great because the running skills block attacks, and with mending on, the few attacks that get through can be recovered from without having to stop moving. and all bonder skills only affect one person, so i dont really get why you said that it only affects one person.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

It's not good though. If I wanted a health buff like that, I'd be better off with something like [[Vital Blessing] which can be maintained.

i said that endure pain is good for low level characters. vital blessing isnt as good a choice because it is an upkeep enchantment, so you have -1 energy regen, and it costs 10 energy. a low-level character has low energy to begin with, so -1 energy regen and 10 energy to cast can really drain a beginners energy fast. especially if its a warrior primary who only has 2 energy regen to begin with.

milkflopance · May 31, 2008, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesterocks7

there are not many ranger skills that benefit the whole group, unless you are talking about your secondary profession's skills. if that is the case, the extra attribute points can boost the effectiveness of those skills.

Skills such as [broad head arrow] and [distracting shot] benefit the party. They help take pressure off the team.

Quote:

regeneration is not only good against pressure. no, it wont save you from a spike on its own, but it can help you enough in between taking dmg to survive long enough for your monks to help you.

Troll Unguent takes 3 seconds to cast. If it takes the monks that long to start helping, you'll probably be dead.

Quote:

Using mending on a ranger running build is great because the running skills block attacks, and with mending on, the few attacks that get through can be recovered from without having to stop moving.

+3 regen is not a lot. It's also a complete waste of attribute points.

Quote:

all bonder skills only affect one person, so i dont really get why you said that it only affects one person.

Tyla said that it only affects one person because it only affects one person. What have other skills got to do with it?

Quote:

a low-level character has low energy to begin with, so -1 energy regen and 10 energy to cast can really drain a beginners energy fast.

Warriors start with 20 energy, that's all they need. I hope you're not suggesting that people use radiant insignias later on.

poasiods · May 31, 2008, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Chesterocks7, perhaps you should taking up some different activities, such as thinking of more clever insults than telling me to drop ranger class, or getting that lazy pinky finger of yours to tap the Shift button every once in a while.

Believe it or not, it takes some effort to type several paragraphs while attempting to have proper grammar and defining my arguments as well as adding retorts to your "perhaps you should play smarter" comments. It's rather disheartening to see a block of nonsense you throw out everytime.

Do realize this started as a question to whether it is effective at all to add 16 points into Expertise. Seeing we've come so far, I'd like to see which skills will benefit you so greatly to have 16 in Expertise instead of 14.

I also see you wrote something about having 16 points in Wilderness Survival out of nowhere. Have you looked up the stats before posting it? Troll Unguent is maintained at +10 regeneration. Healing Spring heals for 30 more health over ten seconds.

Then, you contradicted yourself by making an argument on using Troll Unguent to take pressure off of monks. I recall having made the same argument last, except you brushed it off to the side, saying monks will heal you anyways.

If you could actually play ranger as resourcefully as you claim, you should have no problem managing yourself - even if some of your skills are slightly ineffective compared to what you could have received with few extra attribute points.

Teh [prefession]-zorz · May 31, 2008, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Mending is worthless. Benefits only 1 person, 10 en, -1 en for crappy +3?

chesterocks7 · Jun 01, 2008, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by poasiods

Chesterocks7, perhaps you should taking up some different activities, such as thinking of more clever insults than telling me to drop ranger class, or getting that lazy pinky finger of yours to tap the Shift button every once in a while.

personal attacks are the last resort when your argument is failing, so ill accept that as submission. i dont use my lazy pinky finger because i lost both my pinky's in a tragic accident involving a chainsaw and scantily clad women. don't believe me? tough shit. this is a cyber-argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poasiods

Believe it or not, it takes some effort to type several paragraphs while attempting to have proper grammar and defining my arguments as well as adding retorts to your "perhaps you should play smarter" comments. It's rather disheartening to see a block of nonsense you throw out everytime.

well congratulations. you can put out effort to argue with someone over a video game while maintaining good grammar at the same time. you must be like a college student or something to be so talented.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poasiods

Do realize this started as a question to whether it is effective at all to add 16 points into Expertise. Seeing we've come so far, I'd like to see which skills will benefit you so greatly to have 16 in Expertise instead of 14.

glass arrows. at 14 they last 33 secs with +19 dmg and 19 secs bleeding if blocked. at 16 they last 37 secs with +21 dmg and 21 secs bleeding.

whirling defense. it moves the duration from 19 to 21 secs, and two seconds can be vital in the middle of a fight.

throw dirt. changes duration from 14 to 16. same concept.

zojun's shot. changes dmg from +38 to +42. more dmg is always better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poasiods

I also see you wrote something about having 16 points in Wilderness Survival out of nowhere. Have you looked up the stats before posting it? Troll Unguent is maintained at +10 regeneration. Healing Spring heals for 30 more health over ten seconds.

you obviously didnt read it well because ive only ever said i use 16 WS when i have an elite under that attribute. i wouldnt raise my WS to 16 just for troll, that should be obvious. and yes, healing spring heals for more health, but it is a trap so you have to stay in that area, something thats not always possible, unless you are trying to be a tank. i really dont think i need to argue that troll is a better heal, its rare to see anyone bring healing springs, and you seem to follow popular opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poasiods

Then, you contradicted yourself by making an argument on using Troll Unguent to take pressure off of monks. I recall having made the same argument last, except you brushed it off to the side, saying monks will heal you anyways.

actually if you read what you wrote, you were only making an argument on having low health putting unnecesary strain on the monks, not on using troll. i use troll to take some pressure off the monks, although they will heal me regardless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poasiods

If you could actually play ranger as resourcefully as you claim, you should have no problem managing yourself - even if some of your skills are slightly ineffective compared to what you could have received with few extra attribute points.

i could manage myself just fine. but i dont feel the need, because i prefer having the extra attribute points over the extra health. like ive said before, its all a matter of preference. if you think its anything then there is no point in arguing anymore.

chesterocks7 · Jun 01, 2008, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkflopance

Skills such as [broad head arrow] and [distracting shot] benefit the party. They help take pressure off the team.

i said there arent many, not none at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkflopance

Troll Unguent takes 3 seconds to cast. If it takes the monks that long to start helping, you'll probably be dead.

you shouldnt wait to use troll until you get spiked, its useful to cast even if youre not taking much dmg, if you know the enemy is spiking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkflopance

+3 regen is not a lot. It's also a complete waste of attribute points.

the only build i said it is really useful for on a ranger is a running build, in which case there are plenty of attribute points to spare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkflopance

Tyla said that it only affects one person because it only affects one person. What have other skills got to do with it?

because the only build i mentioned that you would use it for group purposes was the bonder build, in which all the bonding skills only affect one person.

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkflopance

Warriors start with 20 energy, that's all they need. I hope you're not suggesting that people use radiant insignias later on.

no, any warrior that uses radiant insignias is an idiot. my point was that with 1 energy regen, having any skill that costs 10 energy is not a good idea. unless you are using a zealous weapon which also is kinda ridiculous for a warrior.

poasiods · Jun 01, 2008, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesterocks7

personal attacks are the last resort when your argument is failing, so ill accept that as submission. i dont use my lazy pinky finger because i lost both my pinky's in a tragic accident involving a chainsaw and scantily clad women. don't believe me? tough shit. this is a cyber-argument.

well congratulations. you can put out effort to argue with someone over a video game while maintaining good grammar at the same time. you must be like a college student or something to be so talented.

I take it serious enough to try and use proper grammar, you take it serious enough to let me know you think I'm showing signs of cyber-submission.

I'm sorry to hear about your pinkies, but it was more of a retort to your constant volley of "you're not playing ranger as smartly as I am, which is the universal key to supporting my argument," and lack of capitalizations, the latter of which shouldn't be an issue now. I don't believe it to be anything close to personal insult but take it however you want to.

I don't know about losing the argument, but I've always seen greater majority of people taking same stance with what I'm saying (even in this thread) and will continue to if I asked others now. Of course, that can all be managed by the fact that majority does not rule in Guild Wars and that they simply aren't playing as smart are you are. There really is nothing to argue about.

At least you went from saying

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesterocks7

if you are playing the way you should, there should be no question about sacrificing 20 health for 4 attribute levels.

to

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesterocks7

like ive said before, its all a matter of preference.

graverobber2 · Jun 01, 2008, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesterocks7

no, any warrior that uses radiant insignias is an idiot. my point was that with 1 energy regen, having any skill that costs 10 energy is not a good idea. unless you are using a zealous weapon which also is kinda ridiculous for a warrior.

that depends on your build